What is the job of the translator? Professor Mazzotta says translators have a habit of thinking they are artists and they inject their own ideas into the translation which changes the meaning, tone, intent of the artist. If we are to have respect for the original work and to try to understand it, to experience it as intended, a direct translation is best (e.g. Mazzotta recommends the Sinclair translation of the Divine Comedy).
I have been using the Dos wiki here that is a great resource but the translations of the names are quite odd. They don’t go bananas trying to Westernize everything, which is good, but they do seem to be slavish to localization conventions which can have a listless, neutered affect to them. For example…
Japanese: アイアンランス改
Dos translation: Iron Lance+
Direct translation: Modded Iron Lance
Problem: The original game does not use “+” to describe anything and this seems to be a legacy of trying to fit names into character limits.
Japanese: バベル
Dos translation: Babel Spear
Direct translation: Babel
Problem: Added “spear” for some reason. This reduces the gravitas of the name of the weapon. Just “Babel” sounds so much cooler than “Babel Spear”.
Japanese: 撃竜槍(阿)/撃竜槍(吽)
Dos translation: Growling Wyvern/Roaring Wyvern
Direct translation: I find these difficult to translate… directly “attack dragon spear ah/un”. The “ah” and “un” my dictionary says is “Aun, syllable representing the primordial trinity of Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma, (2) inspiration and expiration, respiration, alpha and omega”. The Dos translation reinterprets this as dragon sounds which captures something of the idea of respiration and breath, but the weight of the three-kanji name and the hindu mysticism is totally lost.
I only play lance so I’ve just chosen these examples from lance names.
Japanese: アイルー
Dos translation: Felyne
Direct translation: Airuu
Problem: The Felyne/Melynx (and many of the other translated monster names) are done well. They are clever. But the feeling is different. E.g. the “airuu” “meraruu” “chachabuu” names taken together build the feeling that critters have that “uu” sound at the end of their names. There’s a feeling of cohesion and kinship (at least from the player perspective) between the three animals. This is lost when they all have completely different names.
Japanese: 棒状の骨
Dos translation: Bone
Direct translation: Stick bone
Problem: Why make this simpler? Stick bone clearly describes what kind of bone you picked up. There are so many types of bone in the game, cutting this visual adjective lessons the player’s experience.
Master's Skull description…
Japanese: 達人級のハンターといえど、一瞬の油断で昇天してしまう。そんな彼らの無念がみえる。
Dos translation: Even a master hunter can be cut down by carelessness; their chagrin remains.
Direct translation: Even though a master hunter, in a moment of negligence (unpreparedness) ascends to heaven. Those people’s regrets you can see.
Problem: The translation I’ve offered here is not the best, but it shows the Dos translation has changed the melancholic and spiritual 昇天 to “cut down”. I think the last phrase of the Dos translation is quite clever however, with the wordplay on “remains” that conveys the original meaning of the physical manifestation of their regret.
There are so many more examples throughout the naming. I hope I have demonstrated that there has been a loss of the original creation in the translation.
At best this is a wasted opportunity to rectify the poor translation decisions of official translators. At worst this is a complete cop out for a project whose whole purpose should be the preservation of legacy media for posterity. The attempt to integrate Dos thematically, via the translation, with modern Monster Hunter games is a strange decision that seems to be retroactively trying to “correct” the language of Dos rather than trying to translate Dos.
I haven’t played the translation so I don’t know what quality the dialogue is. But these item, weapon and monster names, taken from the translation, are missing so much of the charm and mystery that form an important part of the world building. I think just based on the names alone players who play this translation are missing out on experiencing Dos as the game’s creators intended and their experience could be so much closer to that intention with a simple, more direct translation.
The stated goal of the translation patch: Our goal for the project was to create a retail-quality patch that is faithful to the series and its fans.
I understand this, and I applaud their effort, especially with the reverse engineering needed to translate the dialogue. But I think “faithful to the series and its fans” means they are not faithful to Dos and the creators of Dos. I would like to see a more faithful translation of Dos so English speakers can have an experience much closer to the Japanese version.
Translation of Dos is a missed opportunity
Re: Translation of Dos is a missed opportunity
It has been over a year since the release of our Monster Hunter Dos localisation, and well over two years since the project's inception, but, for reasons not fully known to me (though I believe has to do with the innate enthusiasm of fans of the series, and the idea that a fan project must inherently lack a quality found in an officially licensed product) the localisation of this game in particular has drawn a lot of criticism. You are not the first, and will not be the last person to have critical thoughts on the minutiae of this patch, but since this forum lets us have a real and permanent discussion, I'll answer some of your criticisms directly.
Firstly, the names of many items, weapons, and armours have names already established separate from our localisation. Painstakingly, we raked through databases to check the accuracy of these items, because we knew fans had a familiarity with the existing names, and these names are canonically accurate through most of the series. Some items have since changed names during their time in the series, because they originally lacked a good and accurate translation (the example that comes to mind is "Killer Beetle", which is now correctly localised as "Shiny Beetle" in the series, and also our patch). When trying to accurately name things, we selected modern, established translations so that it was more inline with Monster Hunter in the current age.
In your examples:
Descriptions of items of all varieties, NPC text, message board messages, and everything else, was still done with care, but when taking on this sort of project one must understand that sacrifices have to be made to fit as much of the original context of the text in as possible. Important details remain, even if the verbatim message is lost. It's impossible to fit literal translations into any part of this game (or almost any game). Simply put, there isn't enough room in boxes.
You use the Master's Skull description as an example, so I'll do the same:
Every text box of all varieties have different maximum character lengths. They're all different, from item descriptions, to NPC text boxes, to decorations. In this example, the maximum number of characters per line is 27. Knowing this, when translating, all the information must be contained in three lines of 27 characters each. Your direct translation (which you claim, yourself, to not be a particularly great translation) doesn't fit, even if every character of every line was used to the fullest.
Now knowing the limits, you might say to yourself, "Well, perhaps now that I do know, I could write something better that fit in the space provided!", and perhaps you could, but you will come across the same problem that all localisers do. You, too, will lack the space to say everything you want, and you, too, will keep as much of the context you can to still get the original idea across. You'll step back and believe you've done a good job, but now, no matter how many times you compare the two, it no longer resembles the original text verbatim. It will never resemble the original text verbatim. To take the first step, you must leave the idea that it must be a one-for-one translation at the door.
Maybe most surprisingly (or not), you even go as far as to say:
Looking back on it, when I think about the project's original goal as being to "create a retail-quality patch that is faithful to the series and its fans", I look back at it proudly. After stepping away for two years and playing the game anew, I look at it with fresh eyes and think to myself, "Yes, this sounds like Monster Hunter", and I smile.
Firstly, the names of many items, weapons, and armours have names already established separate from our localisation. Painstakingly, we raked through databases to check the accuracy of these items, because we knew fans had a familiarity with the existing names, and these names are canonically accurate through most of the series. Some items have since changed names during their time in the series, because they originally lacked a good and accurate translation (the example that comes to mind is "Killer Beetle", which is now correctly localised as "Shiny Beetle" in the series, and also our patch). When trying to accurately name things, we selected modern, established translations so that it was more inline with Monster Hunter in the current age.
In your examples:
- アイアンランス改 has already been localised as Iron Lance+ in the series (MH3U, MH4U)
- バベル has already been localised as Babel Spear in the series (MH3U, MH4U
- 撃竜槍(阿) and 撃竜槍(吽) have already been localised as Growling Wyvern and Roaring Wyvern in the series (MHRise (Growling Wyvern), MHRise (Roaring Wyvern)
) - 棒状の骨 has already been localised as Bone in the series (MH3U)
- アイルー has already been localised as Felyne in the entire series (MH Fandom Wiki, but common knowledge throughout the entire series)
This covers all your item examples, and the Felyne example. What I'm trying to clarify is that these issues with the Monster Hunter Dos localisation is not an issue with our localisation: You are critical of Monster Hunter's official localisation. Likely, you've paid for these modern games and been happy with the text presented. Maybe you trust them to be "more accurate" because the translations were done by professional and paid translators. Perhaps looking at the wide array of resources for Dos, which let you A-B check text with the click of a button (another resource that has been selflessly made by fans), has made you cynical behind the work that went into it. Let me assure you, these are faithful to the series and what the fans expect; it's what the series has had officially, and what the fans have been reading and consuming straight from Capcom themselves.
Descriptions of items of all varieties, NPC text, message board messages, and everything else, was still done with care, but when taking on this sort of project one must understand that sacrifices have to be made to fit as much of the original context of the text in as possible. Important details remain, even if the verbatim message is lost. It's impossible to fit literal translations into any part of this game (or almost any game). Simply put, there isn't enough room in boxes.
You use the Master's Skull description as an example, so I'll do the same:
Code: Select all
達人級のハンターといえど、
一瞬の油断で昇天してしまう。
そんな彼らの無念がみえる。
123456789012345678901234567 (Ruler. Maximum 27 characters per line)
Even a master hunter can be
cut down by carelessness;
their chagrin remains.
Now knowing the limits, you might say to yourself, "Well, perhaps now that I do know, I could write something better that fit in the space provided!", and perhaps you could, but you will come across the same problem that all localisers do. You, too, will lack the space to say everything you want, and you, too, will keep as much of the context you can to still get the original idea across. You'll step back and believe you've done a good job, but now, no matter how many times you compare the two, it no longer resembles the original text verbatim. It will never resemble the original text verbatim. To take the first step, you must leave the idea that it must be a one-for-one translation at the door.
The work of Capcom's current translation team is not poor, and they, themselves, go far to rectify the naming convention of earlier games to be more accurate to the original text. They objectively do good work. But putting that aside, the goal was never "preservation of legacy media for posterity". It already exists, in its original language. One does not obsolete the other, and people who can easily understand and prefer the original Japanese of all Monster Hunter games (such as yourself) can play them all as intended by Capcom Japan. "Preservation" was never the project's raison d'être, it was to create something that felt on par with a real, official localisation. Something that, if it were released today, fans would appreciate. It was never to give Japanese speakers and readers, like you, an English text -- You don't need it. The translation was made for other fans who love Monster Hunter, and wish they could pick up this older game to experience its unique mechanics, but couldn't understand it in the original language. We made this to share our love of a game that others could only wish to experience.
Maybe most surprisingly (or not), you even go as far as to say:
Which doesn't surprise me if you can read and understand the original text like you say. But now knowing that, I hope you never do. Instead, your valuable time could be spent creating true, one-for-one localisations of all Monster Hunter games. You say you wish to see a more faithful localisation, so why not be the change you want to see! Like I have, I recommend picking your favourite and starting there (There's nothing technically special about Dos, it's just my favourite). It's not unrealistic for you to make the tools on your own and find the time -- If I can do it, so can you. Where Capcom have failed you, by either not releasing your favourite game in your language, or releasing it in a state you find utterly deplorable, you can take on the mantle. I can say this confidently because in real life I'm just a regular person. I'm not a low-level programmer, or a reverse engineer, or translator. I'm a Carpenter. I hammer nails and haul lumber for a living. Let's be honest, if a carpenter can do the work, so can you. And between working a full-time job and my own personal responsibilities, I found the time and ability to create something, and share with the world a game I truly love. Truly, I hope it inspires you to do the same, too!
Looking back on it, when I think about the project's original goal as being to "create a retail-quality patch that is faithful to the series and its fans", I look back at it proudly. After stepping away for two years and playing the game anew, I look at it with fresh eyes and think to myself, "Yes, this sounds like Monster Hunter", and I smile.
Re: Translation of Dos is a missed opportunity
Thank you, Kresna, for your detailed and spirited and honest reply! I appreciate your work in bringing Dos to a wider audience, and the care you have taken to make the translation as officially Monster Hunter as possible is fantastic. Most of what you wrote I understand or I guessed at before and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your process.
My main beef is with the Capcom translators, and by extension the material in the Dos translation that comes from them. I distinguish between the original developers of the games and the English language localization teams and I think there have been these weird conventions that have been propagated over the years that have diluted, white-washed, simplified (take your pick) the original Japanese naming and aesthetic of Monster Hunter.
I tried to translate Dos myself a couple of years back but I hit a wall with the dialogue because it is encoded/compressed in a format that I could not access. Which I assume is the problem the old Dos-partial translation came up against, and is what your team was the first to successfully overcome.
I think there is probably more of a demand for the translation you did. But I think Dos is special not only for the uniqueness of its content but also for not being translated by Capcom paid localizers trying to appeal to an American target market. And I think that lack of corporate motivation should be seized as a chance to, for the first time perhaps?, bring a more pure version of Monster Hunter to the west.
I think a more direct translation would be of value alongside the work you have already made. What do you think?
My main beef is with the Capcom translators, and by extension the material in the Dos translation that comes from them. I distinguish between the original developers of the games and the English language localization teams and I think there have been these weird conventions that have been propagated over the years that have diluted, white-washed, simplified (take your pick) the original Japanese naming and aesthetic of Monster Hunter.
I tried to translate Dos myself a couple of years back but I hit a wall with the dialogue because it is encoded/compressed in a format that I could not access. Which I assume is the problem the old Dos-partial translation came up against, and is what your team was the first to successfully overcome.
I think there is probably more of a demand for the translation you did. But I think Dos is special not only for the uniqueness of its content but also for not being translated by Capcom paid localizers trying to appeal to an American target market. And I think that lack of corporate motivation should be seized as a chance to, for the first time perhaps?, bring a more pure version of Monster Hunter to the west.
I think a more direct translation would be of value alongside the work you have already made. What do you think?
Re: Translation of Dos is a missed opportunity
Dos isn't the only Monster Hunter game to never be released internationally. Monster Hunter Portable 3rd and Frontier were also Japan only with no official localisation, and the Monster Hunter Diary: Poka Poka Felyne Village games have never been translated. But that aside, a lot of effort already went into the Dos localisation to make it as accurate as possible within the limitations of the game (and trust me, there are severe limits).
The issue of text box space is the largest one that prevents you from inserting completely verbatim descriptions, and the example from my previous post is not the only one where the context has been kept, but rephrased to fit within the bounds. In fact, it gets even more complicated with weapon and armour descriptions, because they were compressed in a way where identical description line's pointers (any of the three) would share the same string. Now you need to be able to translate partial strings, while forming correct sentences when they come together, juggling the 27 characters per line, all while keeping as much of the original context as possible. Even NPC text has limits as to how much you can fit -- despite there being more space, they just have yet more they want to say in that space.
After translation comes localisation, where stilted and clunky literal translations are shuffled to form English sentences that are naturally spoken. Putting aside the interpretation of Japanese words into English synonyms (what you, I, or whoever else would translate a word could use any word with a similar meaning), sentences are never in a vacuum, and the flow from one to the next, retaining context (implicit or inferred), is important to readability, let alone the pleasure the player experiences reading something that's structured in a familiar way.
But why am I saying all of this?
Because I want to dispel the myth that a "direct translation" is both good and possible, and that the Dos translation is unfaithful or inaccurate. It's impossible to create a direct translation, you simply do not have the space. If you or someone else does attempt it, you'll find the same things we have, and at some point you'll have to concede to cutting out or rephrasing or simplifying text. It won't just be one thing, it'll be almost everything in the over 850 item names and descriptions, the over 1700 weapon and armour names and descriptions, and over 5000 NPC text boxes (which is literally tens of thousands of lines of text). Given the limitations, I feel like our work is as close to "direct" as it's going to get (and, hopefully, a pleasure to read, too).
There's been a lot said about Japanese-to-English localisation over the years, and if you have the time, I'd recommend reading some Legends of Localization articles on the topic (The site is a goldmine, and a great read), and this Interview with Alexander O. Smith (My translation/localisation idol, who's work served as inspiration for what we wanted to achieve).
The issue of text box space is the largest one that prevents you from inserting completely verbatim descriptions, and the example from my previous post is not the only one where the context has been kept, but rephrased to fit within the bounds. In fact, it gets even more complicated with weapon and armour descriptions, because they were compressed in a way where identical description line's pointers (any of the three) would share the same string. Now you need to be able to translate partial strings, while forming correct sentences when they come together, juggling the 27 characters per line, all while keeping as much of the original context as possible. Even NPC text has limits as to how much you can fit -- despite there being more space, they just have yet more they want to say in that space.
After translation comes localisation, where stilted and clunky literal translations are shuffled to form English sentences that are naturally spoken. Putting aside the interpretation of Japanese words into English synonyms (what you, I, or whoever else would translate a word could use any word with a similar meaning), sentences are never in a vacuum, and the flow from one to the next, retaining context (implicit or inferred), is important to readability, let alone the pleasure the player experiences reading something that's structured in a familiar way.
But why am I saying all of this?
Because I want to dispel the myth that a "direct translation" is both good and possible, and that the Dos translation is unfaithful or inaccurate. It's impossible to create a direct translation, you simply do not have the space. If you or someone else does attempt it, you'll find the same things we have, and at some point you'll have to concede to cutting out or rephrasing or simplifying text. It won't just be one thing, it'll be almost everything in the over 850 item names and descriptions, the over 1700 weapon and armour names and descriptions, and over 5000 NPC text boxes (which is literally tens of thousands of lines of text). Given the limitations, I feel like our work is as close to "direct" as it's going to get (and, hopefully, a pleasure to read, too).
There's been a lot said about Japanese-to-English localisation over the years, and if you have the time, I'd recommend reading some Legends of Localization articles on the topic (The site is a goldmine, and a great read), and this Interview with Alexander O. Smith (My translation/localisation idol, who's work served as inspiration for what we wanted to achieve).
Re: Translation of Dos is a missed opportunity
Actually there is a translation for Monster Hunter Diary: Poka Poka Airou Village DX but not the psp titles.
https://github.com/L-StarJP/Monster-Hun ... lation-3DS
Re: Translation of Dos is a missed opportunity
Oh, and recent, too! I've been out of the loop for a while, but it's great to see the list of translations getting larger.Adam wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 1:48 am Actually there is a translation for Monster Hunter Diary: Poka Poka Airou Village DX but not the psp titles.
https://github.com/L-StarJP/Monster-Hun ... lation-3DS